Free Biznik Events vs. Small Fee-based Events - what do you prefer?

Interesting discussion.

As I recall, this conversation began with a question on whether bizniks are reluctant to pay for fee based events.

My decision on whether to attend an event is based on the presenter, topic and timing. I generally ignore events that are offered duing the day M-F because that is when I my clients pay me to be available for them.

When I offer workships to the general public I always charge something - even when I am targeting people in lower income brackets. Free events are problematic, particularly when attendance is limited. At biznik, I've seen no-showes even for "closed" events wtih people on a wait list.

At the risk of going off on a tangent..... It might be interesting to track no-shows. As a presenter, I would want to know if someone has signed up who fails to show X% of the time. That way, I could at least have a conversation with the person.

I do believe that happy hours, open discussion groups, book clubs and other events that don't require specific expertise should be free.

Lara Eve... Thank you for the detailed explaination about paid memberships. Also, I look forward to the enhancements currently under development. It continues to reinforce my faith in "biznik.com" and is why I love to recommend it to new members.

I would like to echo Catherine's tangent suggestion of tracking no shows. I don't know exactly how a individual rating could be calculated, but I would be interested in knowing RSVP's VS no shows without cancellations. People will always need to change their schedules, but how can we encourage the courtesy of a cancellation?

Biznik Rocks!

Great discussion guys, though I confess to only reading the first 2/3rds...its a long thread! (:, I'm glad that it hasn't gotten too much into the 'right/wrong' attitude about this topic: clearly, there are many motives and goals for hosting events and there are many kinds of events...it would be silly to say events should always be free or always have a fee.

My last podcast event (thanks for the praise Sterling, blush blush) was fee-based, had 100% attendance, and people seem to be quite happy with the value. My 'hourly rate' was not quite met, but was dang close and I was happy to help out some cool folks. I was hoping that some more consulting would ensue from it, and indeed a little has.

However, my next event is bigger and free. I'm going to guess they'll be 15-20 out of 25, who knows, maybe all of 'em. My motives and goals for this event are to a)facilitate some good fun and possibly some 'playformation' (personal development) for bizniks, b)to give bizniks a sense of what I do in case they want to refer or hire me to work with other events/groups/etc. and c)to promote a full day playformation workshop that this event is a 'teaser' of. And to me, thats worth my free time (: But we'll see!

Thanks for the great discussion, and see some of you tuesday night! Warmly,

Leif

www.SparkNW.com

Much of success in business flows from doing what you say you'll do, when you say you'll do it. I think the no-show rate is a basic measure of this, and is therefore relevant. If members know in advance that the fact they don't show up at an event will reflect negatively on their profile, I think they'd be a lot less likely to rsvp for events unless they really meant to attend. Right now, I think there are a few who rsvp to free events just to get their name on the list, which gives them additional visibility in the community, whether they plan to attend or not. Or maybe they're just to busy to be bothered.

How does everyone feel about adding an item to your stats called "event no-shows"? Sounds a little punitive to me... when I think about it. Maybe a better approach would be to send an automatic email to everyone who no-shows a free event, reminding them of why it was important for them to cancel their rsvp, that they are taking a spot someone else might have wanted, and asking them nicely to please cancel if they can't make it to an event next time. Thoughts?

Instead of marking no shows for the community to see/question/judge, I have another idea. Turn the tables on recurrent no shows by sending them this message, "After 2 no shows in 6 mos., you will be put at the bottom of the list for the next 2 events you RSVP for and you will be notified on the day of the event whether there is still room and won't be listed on the RSVP page." What I like about this is that instead of labeling someone on their profile as a chronic no show--an act that may agitate and simply drive people away--there are consequences related to the behavior and a clear message is sent, "If you don't respect the RSVP system then you lose some benefits of the RSVP system until you show you can be reliable; If showing up for events is not a priority to you, you become last priority for our events."

Adding a no-show scale to someone's profile does seem punitive to me. But I like the idea of an "automatic email to everyone who no-shows a free event, reminding them of why it was important for them to cancel their rsvp". I bet people would be less likely to no-show next time. Someone also could cancel their RSVP 2 hours before an event instead of being a no-show, right?

I know this idea may be too competitive for the crowd... but what about an option to have paid and free at the same time? Ten seats... at $20. Sure you can be free... but someone can bump you for $20.

i like the latter approach personally. i've been guilty of rsvp'ing for like three events that i couldn't make because of a last minute glitch. i run a retail business on top of taking care of a quadraplegic in addition to being a dad/husband..and now i just agreed to take on a part time job with one of my suppliers..

in every case i rsvp'd with the intent of showing because i liked the crowd attending or theme, but sometimes my networking eyes are bigger than my stomach and i bite off more than i chew. i appreciate you guys posting this thread . it has already caused me to make to decision to be more honest with myself and others..perhaps i need to wait until i know for sure.

i wonder would it be possible to create a seperate category for those interested in an event vs. those who are absolutely certain they can make it no problem..folks in the former category could be like alternates..wouldn't be cool if there was some kind of real time tool that reported to the biznik site that allowed to track who had showed up and maybe let us know if there were slots available that had been reserved but then the person didn't show.. i noticed that events seem to be scheduled for the lighter traffic times of day when one can make it almost anywhere in Seattle Metro in 20 min.. so if folks kicked off their events with a 30 minutes mixer in conjunction with the attendance tool i described perhaps it would result in more turnout..?

and i wonder if their were incentives for attending besides profile rank..if that would help. i have talked about donating floral arrangements as door prizes before and/or gift certificates. what do you guys think about this approach? some positive reinforcement might be good also.

maybe folks could get some added incentive/reward for carpooling..that would be good for the enviroment and would cause people to make personal commitments to each other..

ok my brain is on fire now. gotta find a cold beer and put it out.:)

From what I understand, the basic concept of Biznik is to provide genuine business networking opportunities for Indies, not act as a direct income resource for those choosing to host events. While I do understand some people may want to recover their actual out of pocket costs like paper, food, etc. for certain types of events, I don't particularly agree with the fee-based model where the obvious objective of the host is to make a profit off the event, or in essence turn the attendees into insta-clients. I have never attended a fee-based event, not because I wouldn't be willing to pay for a seminar that seemed of significant value, but because it is rarely obvious what dollar value an event should be worth based on just the description alone. Some of the events I've attended have ended up being a repeat of a lot of information I already knew, so in those cases, had I paid in advance, I'd have been disappointed. However, when I've been to free events where I've gotten a taste of what the host has to offer (even if it wasn't new info to me), it has made me much more inclined to a) give them my own future business, or b) refer others to them who might be in need of their services.

Bottom line, networking is not the same thing as selling, or at least I don't see it as such. It's building relationships which we hope will foster our success in the bigger, long-term picture, whether directly and indirectly. Sharing my knowledge, services, space, energy and support with other people in the same situation as me is simply, in my mind, an investment into my business' future, and my own karmic standing. Karma is more useful than money after all. ;)

Oh, and as far as no-shows. It is true that sometimes I RSVP to reserve a space for an event I really want to attend. However, since many of the events start at like 5 or 6pm, often I have last minute clients who have to take precedence and I'll end up having to cancel the morning of or the day before. I always (except when I absolutely cannot get to a computer - I do work on people, not on computers after all) cancel my RSVP, but it's impossible to know always what my schedule is going to look like until like the day before. Sadly, being a non-9 to 5er puts me a disadvantage for attending as many events as I would really like to. Them's the breaks though. Not complaining - I love my work, and therefore embrace the chaos of accommodating others.

IMO, if we weren't in Seattle, there would be a LOT fewer no-shows to events. I'd be willing to bet money on it actually. It's the culture here...people just don't respect other people's time and energy that much. The only way to change that is to change the culture. Good luck on that front (insert sarcasm here). Having rankings of who no-shows the most is fine with me, if that's what it has to come to. I'd hope the day advance reminder email to ask everyone to cancel their RSVP's if they can't make it would suffice though.

I REALLY like Karrie's idea.

Well, free events are a center of attraction to the public who cannot afford the fee. While, the events where you are charged to get an entry, only people who can afford that fee comes in. Therefore, events which are free, are for public or annonymous but events where fee is charged have standard bcoz when you are charging something, than, u also have to put in the money for giving that service equivalent to the fee u charged....

While u get a low attendance in events where u charge fee, meanwhile, the events which have free entry gets maximum attendance. If u want to maintain some standard of your business, go for fee, and if u want to have more of walk in people, go for free event....

Best Regards,

Syed Faiz Mubarak

so faiz..get in touch with dan mccomb and let him know when you want to host an event in india.:) dan can point you to the folks who tell you how to host an event properly.

success to you, justin

It's interesting to me to see where this conversation has gone.

When Lara and I started talking about it, my main interest was in how to support Biznik more financially. (BTW, Jennifer, I hope it was clear that my charging for my events is not about me making money off them. It's always been predominantly about making money for Biznik.)

The conversation has totally moved into how to stop no-shows and how to get attendees for events...which is also interesting to talk about, but wasn't my motivation for having the conversation in the first place.

What I would love to know is this--are people willing to support this organization financially through paying a fee for attending events?

Absolutely! to what Rachel said.

I would not object to a nominal fee (up to $5) to attend what has been free before. Five dollars on top of food, drinks, parking...would not be a deal breaker for me when deciding which events I would attend. I want Biznik to thrive, not just survive and am willing to put my $$ where my mouth is to prove it.

I would willingly pay more substantial fees to, at the very least, cover expenses for those trying to educate me by sharing their expertise.

If presenting members want to charge more, the market will determine what will evolve in terms of member willingness to pay for perceived value. Members offering programs that prove to be well presented and valuable will be able to charge me more than those who don't provide good value for the price they ask. Let the market do the work of sorting this out.

I am pretty sure that the financial model for Biznik for charging to events is a poor one, unless they can actually maintain a level of "results" for the paid events. Unfortunately there is a community problem when charging for events- poor paid events reflect badly both on the individual and on Biznik (I've heard the comment several times before, that someone held the community partially responsible for an individual's bad paid event)

Great discussion.... my view, concerning Fee VS Free Events:

If you are hosting an event for the purpose of exposure and network connections - do it for FREE. Once your value is apparent, people will be willing to pay you for meaningful educational events and you can charge a relative fee. Your attendance will give you a clue as to when that is appropriate.

I do believe in the KISS formula, so I do not recommend a complex fee structure. I think it's pretty good as it stands.

I'm willing to increase my support to Biznik financially, but I don't think an event fee structure change is the way to do it.

Barry, If you are right, that poor presentations reflect negatively on Biznik as a whole, then Biznik shouldn't have any paid, educational events at all. Biznik is in no position to pre-approve events to guarantee quality. You might be right. I respect your opinions, but I'm not sure you are right in this case. I would need to know more about the complaints you have heard, their number and specific nature, etc.

If you are right, maybe Bizniks who want to offer presentations for a fee should do so through the discussion thread titled "Promotions and Special Offers" or some other thread created for the purpose, that would have an appropriate disclaimer.

Actually, while the comments I made earlier in this thread reflect my personal feelings, I would be happy to see things continue as they are, if...If the current model is working for the health and advancement of Biznik.

John- I understand the position that Biznik is in no position to double-check, confirm, train, or even monitor events due to the workload involved. But unlike TicketMaster, Biznik is a pretty tight and cohesive community of users that seem to hold the transaction process to the community.

I don't think there is any actual fix for that problem unfortunately. It is just a common conflict in the way business interacts with the transaction and community. (its a problem I've seen in other online groups too, it is somewhat stuck into the model)

There could be a disclaimer (never paid for an event, so I don't know if there is) and there could also be a similar disclaimer for those hosting the event, and later down the road even a grading system to help. I know that many of the times I am graded in a presentation or workshop, that having metrics to back me up helps with the next step.

I have just come into this discussion. I am always happy to pay a small fee for a good networking event. For one thing there is often a charge for a venue- unless it meets in a bar which I don't enjoy as I don't drink and don't like the distraction of loud music. I would much prefer to be in a lovely venue where the host has provided snacks and organized it. I gladly pay for this. Most events like this are about $10. Not a big deal and I guess it does show a commitment.

Barry, as a long-time professional trainer/adult educator, I believe firmly in using critique forms at the end of training/educational events. When people pay me good $$ to train them, they have high expectations regarding the quality and relevance of my programs and they want to let me know if I fall short in any way.

Some people have problems giving constructive criticism and either won't fill in the form or will sugar coat their responses so they don't provide useful feedback.

However, I've found that explaining the purpose of the form and the need for the feedback generates a much better response. When people understand that the presenter is trying to improve the quality and relevance of the program, they are more likely to share their feelings. It's not 100%, but it helps.

The use of critique forms is the standard for professional trainers. Maybe Biznik needs to develop a policy regarding presentation critique and a form or process for use by anyone participating in educational programs under the Biznik banner. This would tell the world, including presenters and participants, that quality is the expectation for those puting on programs for the Biznik community. It might also deal with some of the objections to paying for educational events that some might have.

This effort to establish a quality standard shouldn't scare off those who have good material and ideas to share but aren't professional presenters, if it is done correctly. I would even volunteer to participate in the process of developing such a standard (are you listening, Dan and Lara).

The typical club cover charge originally was to cover the cost of not drinking... that is, the $10 charge or whatever came with two drinks... if someone didn't drink, their space at the bar was paid, which usually went in part to entertainment.

Most people who attend a free event do end up paying for a beverage, etc.

Maybe if a 'free' event RSVP cost $5 and came with a drink ticket, the no-show rate would be reduced, and the registration still remain high.

Also this model could facilitate venue / Biznik deals in which the presenter and Biznik could split total sales with the bar.

Just a thought from a low-budget biznik!

This is a great conversation, you guys. I just want to chime in to let you know our thinking about events. Lara and I have realized that the current system, in which we approve events, isn't really scalable. Besides, we don't like being in the position of deciding what gets approved and what doesn't. This is a community website - so it should really be up to the community, not us. So we've decided to crowdsource it.

The idea is pretty simple, and here's how it will work in code on the site: Anyone can create an event in what we'll be calling a "member calendar," which will be displayed in a less visible place than the current Biznik calendar. Once it's in that calendar, other members can give the event a thumbs up or a thumbs down. Events that get enough thumbs up will move into the main events calendar, where they will be visible to the entire community. Events that receive enough thumbs down will essentially disappear. Getting the exact forumula right will take some playing with, but I'm confident this will be a pretty good solution to this problem, and will allow the best-quality events to rise to the top.

Coupled with this will be a simple rating system that will allow attendees to rate an event afterward. This rating will follow the host, so you'll be able to tell at a glance with hosts are hosting highly ranked events, and you'll be more likely to attend future events they post.

For posts that are obvious spam, there will be a flag tool, as there currently is on each member's profile, that allows any member to flag an event, which will immediately hide it (pending review by an admin). Craigslist uses this approach extremely effectively.

So, thoughts?

I see this from several viewpoints. I use to be the Main Meeting Coordinator for a Mac Group called dBug, and produced the general meeting for members. It was always free and attendence was 450 + with people sometimes standing against the wall. Over the years vendors stop sending a tour around the country - so meeting dwindled.

As a consultant, I never charge for the first meeting. That where I determine whether there is a real service I can provide. I am sometimes say no. This is based on what they need, whether they need me to succeed (sometimes they don't) and whether they are willing to commit and work with me toward success.

When I started doing Video work, I stated a fee from the word go. It was my resources, my expertise - and my artistic eye. When I decided to do Biznik Video Event, I couldn't charge because I am at a basic membership. Still I put in the same time and effort because I believe no matter what you do, whether you charge or not, the same rules apply.

But I have also seen a drop in attendance in both my events. 10 sign up, 6 show. 4 sign up, 2 show. I agree that if you pay for it, you are more likely to attend, but if you don't pay unless you attend, there can still be a few no shows.

Now I am producing 2 more Events. One I am working on bringing guests to share their experience and knowledge with those that attend. Again I am not charging a fee. But the one I am planning in November with Apple, I cannot charge anything no matter the membership level. Apple no longer allows their employees to attend meetings where a fee is charged.

I also organize a monthly political meeting and ask for donations to covers the monthly $10 I am charged by the owners of the site that post my events. When we did not meet for 2 months I still paid the fee. So I never tell people what to pay me. It can be a few dollars to $10 and every once in a while $20. But that's a real test on the value of the meeting.

Now I want to add one more element here. My success is based on the success of the meeting, not how much I charge for it. A charge adds expectations, a return on your attendance. So I see this as an important issue, one that has more than one right answer.

Dan, a clarification, please.

In the second paragraph of your last post, it appears that you are suggesting a system of members rating events before they happen. Rating people on performance after the fact is fair, if done correctly, but rating them before seems a bit questionable. Did I get you right or am misunderstanding your idea? I don't think that anyone's idea of a program should be vetoed without cause.

Post event ratings are good if they are aimed at helping presenters improve their presentations otherwise you can end up with a popularity contest that will scare off potentially valuable presenters. A rating without detailed and specific feedback is useless to the presenter and can become a blunt instrument that can hurt someone who doesn't deserve it. I'm absolutely sure that isn't your intent.

Good presenters could be developed with helpful feedback and some opportunities to develop skills in Biznik supported training (i.e. Biznik Presentation Skills 101). There are a number of members who could teach such programs. Maybe a team of qualified members could collaborate on such a task.

A pattern I see in biznik is that some hosts of value-based events who are imparting knowledge and expertise are not charging enough for the value they offer. Not only can this affect the perceived value of the presentation and the presenter, but it also sets a precedent for new hosts and members that all biznik events should be as close to free as possible.

Small business owners tend to devalue their knowledge and expertise and this can cause other people to devalue them as well. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying all events should be fee based, to the contrary...

A variety of price levels and events will help to generate more interest and value in this community over time. As I see it, it’s good for biznik and for the biznik community to offer events in all of the following categories:

Free happy hours and social events
These events really build the community over time and get people related and involved. I think it’s reasonable to ask a nominal fee at times, but good to always have free events on the calendar too.

Low cost introductory events
Show what you’ve got, offer value to the community and possibly lead attendees to something else you offer—a service, a more in-depth workshop, involvement with your organization. This is what Leif was referring to when he said his event was a “teaser.” If done well, these events cause people to act further. At biznik, I would set the fee for a teaser event between $10 and $45, depending on offerings and experience.

Mid to high-end robust events
These are developed workshops and presentations that have a price tag that shows confidence on the part of the presenter and confidence in what he or she is presenting. Participants should leave with solutions, answers, and ideas that they didn’t already have (as Jennifer points out). I see these events as $50 - $500 (and up), depending on the event and experience of the host. (Consider that some of these events might be all day or a series.)

We are lacking in this last area and it may be partly due to the precedent that's been set with the free and $5 events that sends the message to both hosts and participants that higher level, in-depth workshops are not offered here, you must go elsewhere to find them. I would rather not send people away but instead offer these resources here, at biznik.

If you are clear that you can deliver significant value to bizniks, then why not charge a significant amount for your event? If you have a developed body of thought or are an expert in your field, then your workshops and talks can probably be a revenue source for you. I don’t see any problem with a host making a profit since it’s always a choice to sign up. It just adds to biznik's offerings and that's a good thing.

And I wouldn’t be concerned about smaller numbers for fee-based events. I personally want people to have to consider their level of investment before signing up to work with me or attend a workshop. This self-selection can be helpful and often creates a very different dynamic than opening the door to anyone who is mildly invested.

To echo Lara and Rachel, biznik is a networking group but it’s also a business, and if we want to continue enjoying the rewards of biznik, we would be wise to support and give back to it, ensure it's future. One way to do that is to become an Active or Supporting Member. Another way is to attend or host fee-based events. Inviting new members is a no-cost way to help biznik grow and hopefully everyone is already doing that.