Free Biznik Events vs. Small Fee-based Events - what do you prefer?

Great thoughts and breakdown Karrie, makes me wonder if I should have charged something for tonight (as I have put a lot of work into getting it ready, but I think it will all work out well.)

As for the higher end event, I plan on posting the full day event ($149, 20% off for bizniks) on biznik. I still need to find out if its okay to reserve, say, 15 spaces for bizniks and post that here. Then advertise another 10-15 elsewhere...Anyway, we'll see how the engine works for higher cost events. Cheers, Leif www.SparkNW.com

Leif, I agree that you could've charged for tonight's event, at least to cover your costs. I was there tonight, and I would've paid a $10 to $20 teaser charge (that statement is applicable to my mindset both before and after going to the event).

As for your second comment about posting the event to invite some (but not all) Bizniks, I believe the current standard is that Biznik events must be for ONLY Bizniks. On the "post an event page," you can find the rules for event hosting, which includes this text: "In order to be published in the Biznik events calendar, the following must be met: All attendees must be members of Biznik..."

And I totally agree with Karrie's breakdown of how the event payment levels could be structured! Karrie, I'm really glad you're bringing your lazer-like insight to this conversation.

Lara thanks for the thorough explanation. I haven't attended any Biznik events yet but this sure clears up some future questions!

-Andrey

I think that Free/low-cost helps to keep the feel very grassroots. Helps just-startign-out types cope with all the costs of starting a biz and also helps them learn new things at a price they can afford.

But higher Fees are important to when there is significant knowledge being shared, that someone may have taken year as to gather. Especially when it takes away from someone's bilable time to share that knowledge with others. Plus it supports Biznik as a whole to take a cut from those higher fees, which helps everyone in the long run. Biznik is a great service and I'm happy to see so many people support it.

Well, after my last event, my feelings are now mixed on this topic:

On one hand, though the event was free, it cost me $50 for the room, $20 for snacks, and I'm sure I put a good 6-8 hours into preparing.

On the other hand, people pitched in $72 (kinda cool how it covered the room and snacks almost exactly).

On the other hand, I felt a little awkward plugging the 'donation bag' multiple times...felt kinda wierd/cheap and it was one more thing to cram in at the end.

On the other hand, maybe that was just my choice on how I presented it, and I'm feeling overly sensitive.

On the other hand, it didn't come close to covering my time costs (though much prep/material is now re-usable.)

On the other hand, 16 out of 20 people said they were interested in coming to the full day event and 12 out of 20 wanted to follow up on 24 different options.

On the other, would the above fact have changed if I had charged $10-$20 for the night (thanks Rachel for saying it would have been worth that to you), came pretty close to what I got any way, spread the cost amongst people, and insured more people who really pay for services came (though only 3 no-shows out of 25)?

I really don't know and I am totally out of hands. (:

-Leif

The Spark Life

I'm still stuck way back where Lara said only 100 people were paying members of biznik. Maybe I misunderstood? I pay a lot more for networking than $10, and the value is so amazing in this community! In my humble opinion, I think a basic biznik membership should cost.

Having got that off my chest, I like what Karrie said with the various levels of charging. Obviously, people are not hosting events to make tons of money. But many are teaching valuable skills. Relationships and networking are key, but it seems like some events are really about educating indies about important business issues, and there is a lot of value in this. (People do value what they pay for, but this is an interesting community that often seems to try to prove that is not the case. It sometimes feels to me like many people here feel money in and of itself is bad, that it taints things. It I realize this is a hot issue, but I sense a lot of internal conflict that people have about money.)

And I like the idea of charging a nominal $5 for all events. Even if you can't make it, you won't lose that much money. I think running Biznik costs a LOT more then people realize, and if there isn't more financial support for what they have created, it won't survive.

(Just a minor technical point Mikelann. A nomimal $5 will actually be $17 (Biznik adds 12) for non members, and $10 for for active members (biznik ads $5).) -Leif

Leif - I'm glad to hear your out of pocket expenses were covered, and I didn't think your plug for donations was annoying or awkward at all. I was happy to donate money at the end of the event because I felt I got a lot of value out of it, and I wanted to express that monetarily.

Ultimately, I think Biznik, if it is truly about indie networking, should continue to offer a decent number of free events, because to me, networking is about connecting with others for potential future business, not creating instant clients out of people we may never have even met. However, I really liked Karrie's last post about having Free Social Events, then Low Cost Introductory Events and then graduating members into being able to promote their Mid To High cost seminars, training, etc., after the community has sort of endorsed that person's field expertise. I would be way more likely to sign up for a pay event where someone had already somewhat proven their presentation value.

As someone who's new to Biznik and poor, I have a horse in this race. I vote for retaining at least some free events for the following reasons: 1. New people (such as myself) generally want to sample things before they start paying for them. 2. Personally, my business needs to be entirely self-funded. So, until I make $10, I'm not going to spend $10. And since I'm just starting to develop my own business, it takes a lot more time to make the $10 than it used to (when I was a lackey for others).

But I can see reasons for both.

I was just reading Mikelann's post and I do think that members should have to pay at least something to participate in Biznik...at least after like an initial grace period (60 days trial maybe?). I am currently a non-paying Biznik member, but being on my 2nd month, I definitely see the value of the community and plan to sign up for a paid membership soon. However, I do find it a bit odd that no solicitations to upgrade my membership have come my way via email or something. It's frankly unclear to me what the different membership levels even offer, or why I should be encouraged to upgrade.

I think that Biznik could do more to promote the paid memberships if making money is a priority. Also, it seems like having ongoing monthly payments from members as a revenue source is a lot easier to manage administratively than charging for every event. I'd rather pay a set monthly rate of $10-20 and go to as many free events as I want than have to worry about paying $5 online for every happy hour or lunch chat I RSVP for.

If people are willing to pay $10 per month to watch unlimited movies, I can't see why they wouldn't pay $10 for unlimited networking opportunities. :)

You make some good points, Jennifer. The only problem with comparing Netflix to Biznik is that Netflix is one central company, whereas Biznik itself isn't creating and hosting each of the events. When Leif or Dominic or I create an event, that's time and money out of my pocket that we don't get paid for in other ways. I mean, yes, there are other benefits to being an event host, but I hope you see the point I'm trying to make. It's late. :)

This is a complex topic. It covers elements of Biznik--what is it and how to make that so. It covers elements of the businesses of Bizniks--promoting those and delivering our services.

Bizniks events are on some levels a way of promoting and distributing Biznik. We meet face-to-face, we experience the format of Biznik networking, and we (typically) enjoy and benefit from that and pass it on.

In that process, we meet other Bizniks, frequently benefiting from that in some way or another, and passing it along (sharing the high of great interactions, sharing referrals, sharing knowledge).

Such interactions happen at Happy Hour events and at informational/instructional events.

So far, such events have been free or low-cost--and that has tempered our paradigm of Biznik events.

However, Biznik grew (who knew? ;-) and this is now a viable format for promoting members' services such as full-on "seminars" with fees in the 100s of dollars range. That fee level is a bit of a shift in the Biznik event paradigm. But a good one, I think.

An as-yet missing link there is the Biznik tool for "screening" the quality of full-on fee events, i.e., how can I know ahead of time the quality of the presentation. I think that full-on fee events will prosper here when some form of vouching for the presenter is in place (in time, I'm sure). (And I'm not saying it's Biznik's job to screen, just that some mechanism for seeing a presenter's reputation seems viable and valuable.)

In the meantime, presenters can offer free or low-cost events to the community and build-up an array of comments post-event.

In the discussions of fees--for events and for memberships--we need to remember that most Biznik events and relationships have so far been Seattle-based. While Seattle folks might be ready to fork over some fee for any event, outside our area FREE events might still be very, very valuable to getting those other Biznik balls rolling.

Very interesting topic! I commend all who have contributed their thoughts, ideas and values. I'm so glad I made to the end :>)

A huge thank you to Lara and Dan for their continuing to enhance this awesome personal and professional tool for us. The relationiship value for me is ten-fold to whatever fee I may pay.

Mary

I have read through the last page and a half of replies and have a few more thoughts.

I realize that Biznik needs to grow and gain more paid members. It was a good/bad year for me, but I cannot upgrade yet. The growing debt is demanding my complete financial attention. Even that said, one has to invest in anything to see a return.

I enjoy Biznik and in 2 cases it has lead to using members to upgrade our Web Site (Thanks, Andrew Sengul) and to being hired now by 2 members to do video work. So it’s working for me.

If you attend enough events, it can lead to opportunities you normally would have to find on your own. Both of these opportunities would never have happened without Biznik. And that’s a real part of Biznik. So I see many ways to utilize Biznik.

I hope the events I host will lead to better connections, but the way I earn opportunity is by the quality of the work I do whatever it is. I have not asked for donations (maybe I should) because I respect the way Biznik works. And as I said before, I cannot charge anything when I bring in Apple for an Event.

As to referrals for Brake Director, I have received more than a couple of referrals, but none of them lead to a sale. I then offered $25 off for Biznik members. Nothing again. So I took one more shot with $25 off for Biznik members + $25 to a member that referred a customer who buys a unit. Nothing again.

Now this cost me time, but no money. But as a business, I always want to try things and see what works. Video has lead to work. Brake Director™ has lead to zip up to this point. That’s okay. Really. I never really saw Biznik as a potential resource for Brake Director™. (I could be wrong; wouldn’t that be a shock to the system.)

Fees always mean expectations. No way around it. After reading everything, I would recommend Biznik offer a feedback feature for an Event. It could be a survey. It could be a personal comment. It could be both. I know both events I hosted made a difference for most who attended. I think if you RSVP, you should show up or, if not, at the least contact the host. It’s professional courtesy. But there is no upside to punitive treatment of a no show. I would reward those do show with points or some acknowledgement or something. It’s the carrot that brings people around to showing up. What do the rest of you think about this?

About RSVPs.

They're dying, antiquated, dis-respected. This is not to say I don't believe in them--I definitely do. Just that there seems to be a ever-growing disregard for them. That's unfortunate.

If folks who RSVP and do-not-show are to be penalized (on Biznik) in some way, then so too should be those who do not RSVP, but show up--at least for size-restricted events (and yes, this does happen).

Additionally, b/c the RSVP for Biznik events is web-based, it can be difficult to update an RSVP at the last minute; there's no phone # or other way to update these unless I have access to the Biznik website--which is not the case when I am stuck in traffic (behind three different accidents in one trip!!) on my way to an event. ARGH. So, while some of us have the best intentions, circumstances can thwart us.

I have many many thoughts about this topic.

I am not yet an Active member because I don't have a lot of extra cash to "buy-in" with this year. (I do intend to become an Active member once I clear a few more financial hurdles...not yet sure when that will be.)

To be honest, the business value of Biznik to me is still a little bit unknown. While I am meeting interesting people and making good personal connections, it's not yet clear to me that they will result in new dollars coming in to my business.

The one or two organizations I do pay dues for are trade guilds that lend me credibility as an expert because they are specialty groups. Because Biznik has such a broad base of indy types, that sort of "expert legitimacy" is not a value Biznik can offer me or anyone. The irony of this is that I have attended far more Biznik events this year compared other orgs I participate in. Why? Because Bizniks actually organize events - at least one group I belong to doesn't bother, at least not locally - and because many events are free. If free events where I get to meet people from different fields than my own disappear, then Biznik will have lost much of its professional networking value to me.

As for the for-a-fee Biznik events...there are a few issues. As I mentioned above, I don't have a lot of extra money for such investments right now. Because of my current career path, timing is also often an issue for me (I have very few nights/weekends free).

I also have had a negative reaction to the 2.0 Biznik event pricing structure since it was announced. I've thought about it a lot, actually. My reaction is not rational. Here's an example of the stream of consciousness thoughts I have when I'm experiencing that negative gut reaction: "So much for this being grassroots-ey! Is this going to be just another one of those social/professional webby groups that lures you in for free then starts adding pricing after you have been their guinea pig for a while and helped them work out the kinks? I don't like the way that feels. Oh, and so I am supposed to pay every month to be a member and a transaction fee still inflates the price of Events once I do? Yuck."

Now, before you flame me, please know that I said this was my EMOTIONAL response to the event pricing. I do understand there are business reasons behind Biznik pricing, that Dan and Lara need to cover expenses and want to make some money off of this business they've built.

When considering this subject, I've also thought about other sites I joined for free (or for that matter shareware software I downloaded) that I eventually decided to pay for. I've also investigated some other businesses that take the pain away from doing merchant services and RSVP management online. The Biznik pricing does seem fair. Rationally, I know this. Still...that knee-jerk reaction happens.

In the end, I think my perception has been that Biznik went from "groovy 'business networking that doesn't suck' site" to "yet another business association web 2.0 (or whatever) site with pseudo-dues and extra fees." Yes, I know that is a totally reductionist and emotional reaction. But, with all the discussion about value and perception, I though it only fair to share it while responding to this thread. And, in spite of my knee-jerk response, I'm still here, still going to (free) events when I can, and am intending to become an Active member when my budget will allow.

I have a bit more to say about Biznik fee-based events, this time from the perspective of being asked to consider hosting one. I've had some inquiries from other members about when I am going to host a wine event. I'm interested but not currently in the position to put one together right now. Given what I've read in this thread, my best chance at getting enough RSVPs would require me to price the event at what would amount to loss-leader or break-even fees given the Biznik 2.0 pricing structure. I'm too risk-averse this year to invest the time, effort, and dollars in to renting glassware, securing a venue, buying wines, and producing handouts without being more certain that doing the event will bring me profitable business. I'm not writing off the idea entirely. I just can't afford to take that leap right now. And, for what it's worth, I fully intend to investigate it a little further (most likely here in the Biznik forum somewhere) once I have the time to give the idea adequate attention and can absorb a bit more risk in my business development budget.

Back to Biznik fees now... When a business starts introducing fees after offering a lot for free, it takes time to turn the corner. The sad truth is also that Biznik 2.0 came out at a time when many of us, me included, started looking for ways to pinch pennies. Ultimately, Dan and Lara will have to weigh all this feedback against the Biznik 2.0 pricing structure and decide whether changes are needed or not. I guess my advice would be to stay the course a while longer to see if either revenue stream picks up (membership or events-based). If not, perhaps the business model needs to be revisited.

I wanted to point out that one of the values of biznik is not just in helping me MAKE money but also in helping me spend my money wisely. I am increasingly using biznik as one-stop-shopping. When I needed an accountant, I looked here first. When I needed a marketing consultant, I looked here first. Networking is useful for so many things. I'm very grateful for this community!

Bill Fulton hosted a geek social at my gallery. Beer and wine were provided, there was no charge. Keep in mind when a "free" event at a bar or restaurant people everyone pays for their drinks and food. I rarely get out of a bar or restaurant for $5 or $10 dollars.

I think it is very reasonable for people to have their expenses covered, it opens up opportunities for hosting for newer businesses that may not otherwise be able to afford host an event.

Bars and restaurants are fun but it was also nice to know that everyone in the room was a Biznik member.

As a professional speaker I of course think it is totally reasonable for people to charge something for their time, even if it only enough to cover gas and materials.

How I handle my seminars is I always have a couple of scholarships available. I also give a certain number of free seminars a year.

An experience that gives me pause for thought on this subject. I had comped a seminar for someone who could not afford to attend. A couple of months later this same person came in and spent a couple hundred dollars on product.

I recieved a great deal of value from Danielle's press release workshop, far more than the cost to attend. I know that in the future when I need additional assistance in this arena she will be the first person I will think of.

What Raven has pointed out is important. It all comes down to value. This person learn enough to select and spend money at her gallery. This is in part what I was trying to express.

I think Jenny's point is important too. The minute you charge, the return becomes a vital part. I know from the happy hours and from some of the people I've met that they have made connections within Biznik and made money. With a sense of opportunity, one can take advantage of the resources here and build an income of some kind. Maybe if Jenny partnered with a winery to co-sponsor an event... Just thinking.

Hi, David,

Thanks for the idea. Please know that a small group of Bizniks came together earlier this year to explore the idea of a wine event. In so doing, a restaurant and a wine distributor rep was involved. In the end, that idea didn't work out, though in other instances Bizniks have had good luck securing a venue through a friend in the biz for low or no cost.

Asking for favors from others in the wine or hospitality trades requires spending of another sort - social or political capital. I only cash in those sorts of favors, typically, for charitable causes or when I can clearly show how it will benefit those from whom I'm asking a favor. Return is a critical element to that as well, you see. And, I'm not yet ready to spend that form of capital yet either...for a Biznik event or one of my own.

To go slightly off topic, a big reason I'm holding off planning events for now is because I don't want to take on more responsibility than I can handle. Part of the reason I am cash-strapped is because I've in the midst of some adjustments to my work and home life. I had hoped some of them would happen faster than they have been going, so some of my 2007 plans will just have to wait until 2008 or beyond. My first Biznik wine tasting or class is one of those ideas.

FROM: Dale DeWalt 411maximizer.com

206-793-0000

I agree with another’s comment about charging for a service versus TRYING to charge for our MARKETING efforts and time!?

In my humble opinion, charging for an event is only justifiable IF a product or service has HIGH PERCEIVED VALUE, PRESENTS CREDIBLE AND VERIFIABLE TESTIMONIALS, and is STEEPLY DISCOUNTED for attendees of seminars, workshops, or web-binars.

Unless you are a renowned professional with credentials or a college degree, trying to charge any amount for an INITIAL MEETUP seems to be a wee bit too egotistical or bigheaded.

Lastly, attendance PERCENTAGES may ALWAYS be lower than expected for FREE EVENTS, but attendance is much higher. Some of your best clients or customers will always be “pleasant surprises.” NO SHOWS or CANCELLATIONS are normal in any industry and should be “built-in” to your marketing expectations.

Cancellations could be honest unavoidable conflicts of scheduling, bad time management, or simply last minute selfish impromptu decisions made with or without justification … NOT KNOWING WHAT BENEFITS OR KNOWLEDGE THEY ARE ELECTING TO “OPT OUT” ON…