Amen! Not a theological comment and no offense intended.

Dan, perhaps you will talk about this some more? This, and related elements.

On the one hand, because Biznik is about building relationships, the Biz Talk portal naturally gets used to aid that. A little small talk ensues, and everyone goes a little off-topic sometimes.

BUT. Like you say, is the traffic contributing overall to our business knowledge? Is it thoughtful? Helpful?

OR. Is it the work of someone just wanting to hear themself talk, or someone trying to work the algorithms? Or insomniac ramblings?

I know all y'all are working on this, and I take comfort (pleasure, even) in knowing that you have the geek power to shut down those who are abusing Biznik.

But then there truly are those who are just trying to figure out the culture here, and who make a few stumbles as they go (as we all do when we enter a new realm). For those folks, (for all of us even) I keep imagining a tutorial in How to be a Good Biznik Citizen.

Love&Light.

That is an awesome suggestion Leila. I like the Good Biznik Citizen idea. have been wondering if a workshop on how to get the most out of Biznik would be a good idea..it could be targeted at newbies but also contain useful tips for us vets as well.

Hi Dan,

I'm not sure which threads you are referring to, but I've found that a certain number of "me too" comments are helpful for the community feeling, actually. I'm wondering if the conversation is actually being slowed down by the 'me, toos' or if it's just a feeling that you're having.

Because we're not all sitting in a room together, we can't see people nodding, smiling, or agreeing in non-verbal ways.

I'm all for keeping things on-topic, and yet, there needs to be the social element in the conversation.

Can you give me a more concrete example of what you feel isn't working?

ME TOO! ME TOO! YES! YES! YES! I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE THAT FEELS THIS WAY! =]

Thank you Leila and Mark!

For the last 20 days I've felt that I was a "lone wolf" that also has a Biznik network.

I love the feeling of support that was expressed/portrayed on the forum [When I was still an active participant on the forum].

Sometimes the agreement of another member is the greatest help and it can be worth more than a business referral.

I think that Biznik is/should be the glue that holds work and play together.

Free Speech For Biznik! =]

-Andrey

I'm going to opine that the "me too" comments to which Dan referred are those which, as he says, drag down the quality of a conversation. And yes, there've been many, many of them in the recent past. And perhaps "me too" is a little too much shorthand for the phenom. So ...

I know that it comes up in any forum that what one member values another finds annoying. BUT. And for example, a comment along the lines of, "I used to work in that field but now I don't" or "My dog agrees with you" or "My cousin ran into that problem, too"--well, I don't see what comments such as those contribute to the whole.

As you point out, Andrey, certain "me too" comments can be encouraging, and do contribute. Especially when the conversation is along the lines of, "What has been your experience with XYZ?" But other comments could really be made off-line and directly to the writer--and sometimes can be elaborated upon, e.g., "Me too, because the SBA rocks!" and become both encouraging and informative.

And yes, like you say, Mark, "me toos" can contribute to the community building. Perhaps part of where that breaks down is if all a member ever says in Biz Talk, is the equivalent of "me too". When that happens, they aren't revealed, we cannot build a virtual relationship b/c we can never get to know them--and that's rather un-Biznik.

There's a rising number of "me too" Biz Talk topics being started that probably belong in the Coffee Break section (if they belong at all). These are ones that get some bites but really it's questionable if the person cares about the topic, or if they are just bored or hope to affect their Google rating. (Which is a funny motivation because what you say in these forums does get picked up by Google and as we know, goes on our Permanent Record.)

Which reminds me that one of the Great things I see here is an absence of rudeness/flaming. It's happened only once in Biz Talk that I know of, and even then the parties were quickly sequestered.

I hope we all keep talking about this. This very thread is a great example. Dan posted weeks ago. John commented, but then it was quiet here. I thought about things for awhile and then shared some thoughts and asked for more clarification. While some might argue that Justin, Mark, Andrey's comments were "me toos" I would argue that heartfelt expression and asking for more data and adding more data--well, that's valuable to the community as a whole and out of the range of "me too".

And, while some might argue that John's initial "Amen" comment was a "me too", I would remind that John has been around these parts for about as long as anyone, he rarely speaks out, and usually does so only after sage observation. By virtue of his history here, he's earned a certain status/place of honor that puts weight behind his comments.

I hope we keep talking about this. It can be an adventure figuring out how to behave in a new community, especially Biznik, beings that it is built in ways that make it intentionally unlike most business communities.

Love&Light.

I think it's a ripe conversation to have. I'm just concerned that some kind of 'policy' will try to be enacted about 'me too' comments, and this will make those who tend to lurk and not comment even less likely to start commenting.

In my experience with my own community (http://www.thebusinessoasis.com) this can be handled more on the personal level than on a legislative/policy level.

For instance, if someone posts a 'me too' that I feel doesn't contribute as much as I'd like to a conversation, I might post a reply in that thread, or send a personal message to that person encouraging them to tell me more about their experience/question.

It's more labor-intensive, but it doesn't have the 'freeze-out' effect that can happen when you try to make a policy about something that is so vague as a 'me too.' comment.

For instance, John may have earned a rep around here, but how would a newbie know that? And what kind of confusion/hurt feelings can that cause?

This community has sprung up quite robustly, and that may make it less obvious how fragile a thing an online community can be. I'd want to exercise a lot of caution and lot of heart before doing anything that would give someone pause before contributing..

I'm not saying that Dan isn't giving it a lot of caution and lot of heart, I'm just not getting how you could possibly put it into a policy. I'd rather see it as a community understanding, and perhaps have veterans volunteer to draw 'me too' commenters to share more and enrich the conversation through inquiry, rather than trying to 'stem the flood.'

Could you point me a to a thread, perhaps in a private message if you don't want to make it public, with an example of what you're talking about? That would help me contribute more meaningfully and specifically.

I don't think that anyone is looking for a "policy" here, just some guidelines and guidance. It's a new community and it's a unique community. Most people involved are trying to make it a valuable community for indie business people (and friends of indies). There's lots for everyone to learn about being here. I suspect that Dan's orientation is much along the lines of your last paragraph re: "community understanding".

I'll be shooting you a private message expanding on this, maybe tonight. You've made some good points that will help my thinking. Thanks.

Cool- I'm looking forward to that. Glad I could be helpful.

Since my name has been "used in vain" :-), I'll pipe in with some comments that might help to clarify the issue on the table.

1 My comment was pertinent to a problem that Dan had identified and that some of the rest of us had also noted.

It was pertinent in a context that is obscured when reacted to much later, out of that context. That's one of the problems with coming in on an older thread. Even if you read the whole thing, if you weren't there then...

My comment was intended to second Dan's "motion". He was placing himself out there to make his comment; he needed amens and objections. Hence, the thread has continued with what I see as a good discussion.

2 I've felt the urge to comment many more times than I actually have. Most of those comments were not submitted because, before I hit the submit button I asked myself the question: does this really contribute to the thread?

There is an appropriate thread for casual and friendly gab. I can even invite someone to follow me to the Coffee Break thread to pursue other relationship building conversation or I can invite people to real live coffee.

In my opinion, valid contributions constitute a broad category that includes not only new or reframed thoughts developing the thread but also "me toos" offered as votes in support of ideas expressed and supportive of the people expressing those ideas.

3 Free speech allows expression of opinion all over the place. As long as it is not expressed as a personal attack, it has to be accepted, not just tolerated.

If the situation Leila referenced regarding earlier flaming incidents is the one I recall, it was the only such occurrence in my time in this group. It ended with a person being barred from membership for engaging in very rude and persistent personal attacks on other members.

4 One of the life lessons I learned the hard way is one that all successful business people learn eventually. That is, that you have to develop a bit of a thick skin (not head) because of the challenges and criticisms you are bound to encounter along the way. This doesn't mean that people's treatment of you doesn't ever hurt but you learn to extract the lesson and move on.

I combine that with a firm belief that the vast majority of people are good at heart and are doing their best to live the best lives they can, just as I am.

5 Biznik is like your family or your best friends. Comments coming from members should be examined for the truths they might contain before they are reacted to defensively. Of course, as with family and friends, you should be able to freely disagree. If that takes the form of respectful discussion, it's all good.

Mark, I believe as you do that there doesn't need to be a formal policy. The mere fact that this discussion is taking place serves to bring the issue to the attention of any member who happens on the thread. Maybe that's all that needs to happen with this issue.

John

:)

Clearly something was happening that I missed- and mea culpa, the last couple of weeks I've been out of service with other things. I just became concerned when I saw the thread, because I value the community, and I know from past experience how easy it is to shut down conversation.

Still interested, even for just educational purposes, to know what was originally being referred to. And I don't have to know...

Mark,

I value your comments in this and other threads. I appreciate both the content of your posts and the caring tone and nature of your posts. Please don't take my post as some sort of rebuke. I was just trying to clarify the issue by providing another perspective.

Keep doing what you're doing; it's a real contribution.

John

John makes an observation that puts some of the current "huh?" sensations into context, when he explains that re-visiting an older thread (such as this) can come with a lack of context.

When I go back now and try to find any "me toos" I'm hard-pressed--it's like they never happened (although, they were).

So my apologies for any needlessly ruffled feathers.

I am still happy this conversation is happening. And I wish I had the time these days that I could volunteer to draft something about Ways to Be a Biznik. But I can point out the Biznik Manifesto which is overarching (and a little less obvious on the site any more).

Yours in pondering.

Thanks, John.

I didn't take it as any rebuke, and thank you for your kind words, I'm definitely not going anywhere (except on vacation, but then I'll come back ;-). I just realized that I was making comments without fully understanding the context. I also look at the reply to Dan, and saw that it was within a day or two, and didn't notice that Dan's comment itself was three weeks old.

Dan, In reading the extensive messaging on this, it brings to mind the impression that some folks have waaay too much time on their hands. I wonder if this process is a turnoff for some members and potential new members. Is this a social network or a business network?

Roberta

Roberta - don't think for a second that this is not a bit of both. This is a social network AND a business network. This is not one of the big stodgy groups - Biznik is something more akin to a more comfortable network of people, and thus does have a lot of the social qualities that make the stodgy networks not my and many others first choice.

I tend to agree with Mark on this issue. This is a forum - and in any forum that I have seen over the last twelve years since I have been involved in the Internets industry (holy moley, has it really been that long...), there tends to be all kinds of conversations, and all kinds of contributions to any given issue.

In terms of the 'me too' replies - sometimes that is what is relevant as a response for many reasons. To exclude any quick contribution really .....well, it seems over-controlling. Not everyone expresses themselves the same in these kind of situations, some will go on and on like I am doing, and others want to contribute, but will do it with a quick affirmation. Both responses are important to allow people to contribute naturally to a conversation.

So, I think that it would be too bad to discourage someone that may end up a great resource because they may not always contribute in full sentences with lots of immediate content.

Just picture for a moment someone that is reading this, recognizes themselves in what we are commenting on, and feels badly about their one-liners, and chooses to not contribute.

Would that be good?

No.

Those one-liners are not the end of the world, in my opinion.

And, Roberta - some people just may "have waaay too much time on their hands". Sure. Others may just feel attached enough to this community to want to really get involved and help contribute to set the policies that affect us all. We are often asked how to make Biznik better, and this is the exact kind of situation that we are asked to remark upon.

While I understand some need to limit the extent of "me too" comments, there is also a valid need for specialist to confirm each other.

For instance I'm an online marketing and business dev guy, when another specialist in my niche says "me too" it adds a lot of backing to my statement (and vice-versa)

If I make a statement that "Blue buttons make sales 25% better!" most people think I'm full of it. If 2-3 other guys in my arena say "Yep", "I agree", or "Exactly" it tells the community on a higher level of credibility that my somewhat hard to believe conclusion is actually a supported point.

Especially when it comes to stuff like SEO, trying to tell someone exactly why it works is sometimes impossible. There are many times I have to make the statement "just trust me, and add the blue buttons..." or I have to ask them if they have a huge budget to have me sit in an office for five days and attempt to educate them on the blue button phenomena.

Perhaps the need for such supportive "me too" comments would be less if there was a good way to score and rate questions and answers.

As one of the instigators of this particular thread, I have been thinking very much about all the comments.

One of my personal over-arching missions is to encourage people to be their true selves, and to speak their authentic words--so I certainly do not want to contribute to any stifling of voices.

As I've read the comments, a few things stand out. This is an old thread and without the context that was the impetus, it is easy to mis-understand or mis-interpret. I believe this contributes to some of the "angst". Understandably. I don't think anyone wants to squelch a good conversation. (Sure, "good" is a qualitative word, but I suspect we would generally concur on what qualities make a conversation "good".) And many things contribute to a good conversation, including "nodding heads" and "uh-huhs". So, yes, absolutely, "me toos" can have valuable--very valuable--contributions to make to Biz Talk (as so aptly described in many of the comments above). Absolutely. Perhaps the term in use should be expanded to "Me-too. Look at me! Look at me!" Because it was those kinds of comments that were diluting the conversations, the ones that were not so much about "contributing" to the conversation as much as shining a spotlight on the writer.

Like Barry suggests, I long for a way to score/rate the Qs and As. It could serve as a filter for choosing which conversations might be valuable to me based on the overall ratings of the participants. And, it could help give some "context" to the things that various members might say, in that one or two comments in isolation might elicit a WTF response--but if a reader could see that the member had been "rated" as credible or valuable, they might have motivation to look again and see why.

With immense respect, and gratitude. --Leila

One of the things I like about "me too" comments is that they demonstrate that there is a collective mind within our community.

When I see a number of comments agreeing with someone, I am more likely to take the original commenter's post more seriously, particularly if I know some of the "me too" posters.

Just my 2 cents (now 5 cents with inflation) or 1.5 cents if you are using housing bonds to measure value, smile.

oh

There really are two sides to this coin. I really like Keith's last point but certainly see Dan's point of view. There really are some blatant abuses of the comments like the one from David L. above mine. Perhaps he's just trying to be cute. I think you can ask people to keep it to a minimum or try to make a point when commenting but it is up to them to be professional.

Dan, per your comment on another topic, here's another opportunity to generate profit for Biznik. Basic, free members will need to 'Upgrade' in order to make 'me too' comments! :)

Beyond the conversation, there are a lot of me-too articles as well. How about a filter on these? Or at least find a way to categorize them somehow.

How about a "Welcome to BizNik Thread", that would be real users comments and suggestions to new users. It would be easily digestible for the novice user, and it can have a simple heading such as: "what the biznik community has to say on being a good member of the community".

It would be selections from threads, with links to the the whole thread for back-story, and give a tone for the forums. Put it stickied near new user info, and have it updated with gems as appropriate. Perhaps a link: Send Suggestions to the Admin, of something you'd like to nominate or it could be a live thread, but the editing I think is key to the experience.