Let's Talk about Lawyers

Most of the attorneys that I know specialize in an area of law. What's your specialty? Art T.

The Washingtain State Bar prevents lawyers from posting a specialty, unless one is a patent lawyer. Lawyers can say that their practice is limited to a certain area.

See Priya, that's a very lawyer like answer and a part of the problem expressed in the question. I know that about Washington but that's not the way lawyers practice. Art T.

Hi Valerie,

Boy, are you asking the right questions!

Given that your represent small businesses, their owners, and individuals, asking Biznik members what they DON'T like about finding/hiring/dealing with a lawyer is the best possible first step to crafting a marketing message that really works.

So, here's my two cents.

I hate feeling like I am paying top dollar for a lawyer to fill in a few blanks on a template and push "print." I don't mind paying for the consultation time. I respect the need for an attorney to ask questions and spot areas that need attention. But paying the same rate for the production of documents leaves me feeling ripped off.

The other thing I dislike is feeling like every time I bring a situation to my attorney, she "awfulizes" it. I realize she is there to protect my interest, but is it really necessary to approach everything from the worst case position?

Hope this helps!

Yes, I certainly understand the importance of giving the client complete information.

For me, it helps when a lawyer reminds me that it's her job to point out all the potential pitfalls and trouble spots. It would help to to have a conversation about what a contract (for example) can and can't do and what I might consider in deciding what level of trust is appropriate in a given situation.

Hope that helps.

Great questions, and great answers.

I guess I have the same reaction around the forms. For instance, I once had a conversation with a lawyer about incorporating our business. She quoted me a price of $1500.

We then had a conversation with our accountant, and I then looked up a book (used on Amazon for $8) that was specific for Oregon, found all the paperwork online, which was very straightforward, sent the state a check for $50, filled out the paperwork, followed the instructions, and sent it in.

That definitely left me wondering "Why $1500?" I'm sure there are things that the lawyer did, and there may have been things I might've missed, but that's my impression of lawyers in small business.

And this despite having a generally good impression of lawyers- several of my cousins are lawyers, and I like them. :)

First, hello to Priya and nice to meet you Valerie!

Mark, I really like Client self help in certain areas. But, it really is the rare client who actually makes it all the way through the entire process without stumbling somewhere. That's where lawyers come to the rescue.

As to the awfulizing, I have to say that all my existing and pre-trial business and probate litigation cases have client self help mistakes underlying or exacerbating the situation. Hypothetically speaking, fifteen hundred dollars is a bargain when compared to the $15,000 that can be necessary just to evaluate and prepare a case for pre-trial and the $150,000 that could be the potential pay out to the opposing party.

Valerie, your assessment and your approach to charging for basic corporate formation work makes a lot of sense. Thank you.

Over the years I've had many lawyers as clients. My partner is also the business manager for the local office of a large national law firm. In addition, I work the attorneys of clients in regards to trademark and copyright issues. So, much of my work is with lawyers - as is much of the socializing in my personal time.

In general, I have a very positive perception of lawyers as many are friends - but have run across a few "bad apples" on occasion.

I tend to get a lot of requests for referrals from other small business owners when it comes to seeking lawyers for their own purposes. For many, I think just the thought of seeking out a lawyer is overwhelming - especially if simply opening the Yellow Pages or some other directory to find one. It's great to have a personal recommendation from someone you know and trust.

• J.

Hi Valerie,

Yes, your flat fee charging does make sense, and I appreciate your response.

I do know that I would be paying for expertise and experience and etc. I was just wanting to give you the questions/objections that rise up in my mind. It's up to you, as a the marketer, to meet me there. :) As it's up to me, to meet my clients there, even if my answers make 'sense' they still might not land well if I don't answer what's going on for them.

For instance, as a DIYer, I would respond well to a lawyer who, instead of saying that she charged me a flat fee of $1500 to do everything, would notice that I'm DIYer (by asking some questions, perhaps. :)) And then offering a package that included a step-by-step guide for filling out your own incorporation papers, the corporate notebook, etc, etc, everything I need to understand it, and then also offered to go over what I came up with, to 'vet' it.

I would've been willing to pay several hundred dollars for a package like that at the time- to know for sure that I was doing it right, that I had someone watching over me, and knew that I wasn't missing anything.

But, to have an all-or-nothing offering of $1500 versus no help at all... especially when I found out it just wasn't that hard to do, once I had the right information... well, let's say I didn't come away feeling like an equal partner in the exchange.

I'm just offering this up in case it gives you some insight into how clients like me- small business owners, might be thinking. I hope it helps!

You're welcome! I think what happens for me, and perhaps you, and other specialists, is that we end up creating huge big offerings built on the depth of our specialist knowledge. And the clients just don't need that much, unless they are in something deep.

So we end up 'kitchen sinking' them- that's what I call it, offering, and charging for, everything, including the kitchen sink.

But, if I had spent $400 on a lawyer to get going, and then ran into a problem a year down the road, and needed a lawyer, guess who I'd be calling?....